Sharing My Music and Sound Effects - Thousands of Tracks

Modanung

TPW I repeat: Most people refer to free/libre regarding the code base, as the free software movement (where both terms originate from) is originally not about assets.

Apparently you are oblivious to the term free culture. Most people here are not.

See also: Free content, with separate sections on media and software; games = both.

Saying that a game is intertwined with its assets, but ignoring the hardware that is needed to play it is rather inconsistent, or not?

Uh, no. You're heading into reductio ad absurdum territory. I think we can all agree that both software and media are part of a game project, while hardware is outside the scope of both software projects and game projects.

TPW Games like Warsow, OpenRA, or Zero-K are, however, also free, libre video games that you chose to exclude.

I exclude them from the definition of free/libre games, not FOSS games... apart from OpenRA, since that's an engine reimplementation (not a whole game) which allows one to play a proprietary game using free software. Just as SCUMM VM is not a game, and doesn't all of a sudden make The Curse of Monkey Island a libre game.

Speaking of Warsow...

TPW

@Modanung I know about the free culture movement, and I'm sure most people here know about it. But again: The usual definition of free and libre is in terms of software, as both terms originate from the free software movement - and mean the absolute same thing.

I disagree. How do you plan to play a FLOSS video game without the hardware? The hardware and the interconnected drivers are a essential part of the "game" as an experience. It won't work without it. On the other hand, you could create replacements for the unfree assets yourself if you want to; in comparsion, it is much more easy than to create the hardware and interfaces needed yourself - so the limitation to the users freedom on this side might be even regarded as less important.

But, lets say I'd share your bubbles definition of Libre (I don't):

FreeGamedev.net is a community of Free and open-source (FOSS) game developers and players.

Modanung

TPW The words free and libre have been around for centuries, and the commons as a legal construct can be traced back to Roman law. Thinking these words always apply to software is what could be described as a bubble. Note that open source is a different issue, since - unless you're talking to a journalist or secret agent - the word source is a shorthand for source code.

Indeed the description of this community - which I am not disputing - is clear.

Game developers cannot control the environment/hardware their games are ran on without forbidding it in the license, which would make it nonfree software.
Saying games with nonfree assets are libre because you can replace them is like saying proprietary games are FOSS because you could rewrite them. Which of the two is easier to do depends on your acquired skills.

Modanung

Another non-LGW reference correctly defining libre games can be found on the LibreGaming website:

LibreGaming is an organization of software freedom and gaming enthusiasts who meet on the web to discuss and play computer games that are free/libre and open source software.

We have written [...] a page on how to play libre games.

How is this achieved?

By sharing everything needed to make the game with its players. This includes code, music, art, 3d models, documentation - with full permission to share and remix (and even make a new game from it).

Using assets from the OP for a game would put that project outside this scope.

TPW

The LibreGaming website is inded also a part of the scene that you and the LibreGamingWiki belong to. You might even be able to find a third, a forth, and a fifth website. Above that, it might become difficult.

Also, "free" as term in the context of licenses is a product of the 70s, to my knowledge, introduced by RMS. "Libre" in this context is even younger, probably from after 2000. The Romans had no concept of licenses in the sense that is relevant here. The idea of copyrights is a concept of early-modern history.

Modanung

TPW Can you - besides FreeGameDev - find one other that misconstrues the terms?

...in the context of licenses...

Are you now saying the licenses context equals the software context?

TPW

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_terms_for_free_software
Also: Poussinou/FLOSS-Games-on-Steam
or https://store.steampowered.com/curator/38475471-Libre-Open-Source-Games/

You can also go to Reddit or Lemmy. Ask for Free/Libre Video games, and see what people will answer. The difference between "Free/Libre" "Libre" and "OpenSource" does basically matter to a handful of nerds, and only a tiny fraction of those who even know what these terms mean are in your camp.

Modanung

TPW All your links explicitly include either the word software or source.
None speak of "free/libre games" under the assumption that assets may be nonfree.

TPW

Modanung That depends how you dissolve the frankenwords.
Number 1:
Free/Libre Open Source Video Games, probably uses Free and/or Libre as alternative terms to OpenSource, just as described at the Wikipedia article, and as common for pretty much everybody.

Number 2 lists the games as "Libre & Open Source Games". This could mean that both types are listed, or that both are regarded as identical. The fact that VVVVV is listed as unfree open source game (not even under a Open-Source license) supports the first stance interpretation, showing that the curator regards game with a code under a free/libre license as "Libre Games".

Also, I would like to point out that you are probably among the most active users on at least one of the sources you cited. I use the term Free/Libre as described by me (and on the Wikipedia, the FSF, and basically any other than the Wiki that you edit) on my pages :).

Modanung

You're using a lot of words to again not make a point.

What you call "dissolving", I would call ignoring essential contextual indicators. Nowhere does it say libre games.

I use the term Free/Libre [...]

As if it always refers to software, which Wikipedia and the FSF don't do.

Also, I would like to point out that you are probably among the most active users on at least one of the sources you cited.

I do not own the site, nor did I influence its criteria for inclusion, if that's what you're implying. In fact I stopped using the NC-flag years ago because of it.

poVoq

I think you are splitting hairs over a small disagreement in wording/definitions.

But regardless of that disagreement, I can only strongly recommend to people that are developing Open-Source games to think about the licensing of assets they chose to include from 3rd parties. It's practically guaranteed that custom licensed stuff is going to cause you (or whoever takes over development a few years down the road) headaches sooner or later.

Modanung

poVoq I don't think confusing the terms 'software' and 'games' falls within the category of "splitting hairs" in a game development community. It downplays the effort and time required for making assets, which is a slap in the face of artists.

poVoq

That doesn't seem to be what the disagreement is about though. You both seem to understand what the other person means, you just disagree on how to name it.

Modanung

poVoq How is a disagreement about the meaning of "libre games" being distinct or not from "FOSS games" not about conflating the terms 'software' and 'games'?

TPW

Modanung Well, "Libre Game" is a different thing from "Free/Libre Open-Source Software Game" if you use a definition that is used by you and probably five other people. As shown above, the usual usage of Free/Libre is relied to software, where the terms originate from.

You make absolutely bonkers statements, and are unable to substantiate several points (definition of "games", the division of game and hardware, your statements about the origin of the term "free" in the context of licenses, and so on...).

You can talk as you want. Call your spoon a table, I don't care. But trying to rebrand terms already in use within a connected social movement to exclude others is a bad and malicious practice.

poVoq

I think using "Libre game" to specifically refer to a game that is both FOSS and Free Culture is not such a bad idea. There isn't really another simple term that could be used and clearly this is different from games that depend on non-libre assets.

But anyways, I think I am going to close this thread now, as this isn't going anywhere.

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